Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast

Interview | Addiction, Recovery & The Enneagram with Michael Naylor

March 11, 2021

In this episode, the Seths and Drew talk with enneagram teacher and addiction expert Michael Naylor (4w5). Michael was kind enough to join us from his home in Portland, Maine and talk to us about the intersection of personality and addition. Michael is a wise soul with a wealth of insight. Enjoy! 

  • A bit about Michael and his enneagram origin story [3:40]
  • Michael’s enneagram elevator pitch [7:30]
  • In Michael’s opinion, the greatest myth about the enneagram [8:15]
  • Creek goes to therapy with Michael [9:40]
  • One of Michael’s favorite transformation stories working with clients in addition and recovery [12:35]
  • Michael’s definition of ‘addiction’ and the enneagram’s levels of health [18:40]
  • Re: quality of presence and level of addition [25:00]
  • Michael’s take on connecting certain additions with certain types [29:00]
  • Re: enneagram type, genetics, and addiction [30:50]
  • The psychic structure and personality type [33:40]
  • How to help the types see more clearly [44:00]
  • Creek goes back to therapy with Michael [47:00]
  • The process of recovery [53:25]
  • Lessons for the types about recovery (even if they aren’t in recovery) [55:45]
  • Advice for those who may need help [1:01:45]
  • Michael’s lessons from his own recovery journey [1:03:30]


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Ways to find Michael and his work : 

Fathoms | An Enneagram Podcast: “Discovering our inner depths, one fathom at a time.”

Co-hosts: Seth Abram, Seth Creekmore, Drew Moser

Production/Editing: Seth Creekmore


  • Follow us on Instagram: @fathoms.enneagram
  • Follow Abram: @integratedenneagram
  • Follow Creek: @creekmoremusic
  • Follow Drew: @enneagrammers

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